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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 22:40:19 GMT 1
Yes, that is what I was hoping for: that you'd categorize with a philosophical term the concept he might have been alluding to.
Regarding your objection, I suppose that you are saying that, in simple words, he has no proof for his concept. Or maybe you are saying that it is the so-called "fear porn"? Of course, by his usage of words, I can tell he is a refined thinker, skilled at using words (I could never do that in a foreign language, as English is to me), so he's probably intending a deeper meaning than we are attributing to him. We should let him talk further, and let him engage us with his intellectual provocations.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 23:01:53 GMT 1
All you do is recognition and naming. What you do not know you cannot recognize and give a name to it. All that knowledge is learned. It is not your own. Besides, you are thinking all the time, thoughts are controlling you. There is no 'person' who has these thoughts. There are only thoughts and thoughts about thoughts. See my last post above. Unsymbolized thinking www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pristine-inner-experience/201111/thinking-without-wordsIt doesn't matter. You can only recognize and/or name something if you have knowledge about it. This knowledge is not your own. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 23:16:52 GMT 1
"Freethinker" is a term dear to us, after both being banned from IFERS for being freethinkers. lit came up with it at Serendipitous, where we all went, after being banned by Eric Dubay about a year ago, towards late March / early April, in his first wave of bans. I think what @flatter is saying is that we are all the products of existing ideas, words and causes, and we are simply the product of the circumstances that produced us. I agree, but after a few seconds entertaining that thought, it drives me crazy, so I'd rather not think about it. Have you two seen "Being There" by the way? It is a move related to this subject. It ends with "...Life is just a state of mind". It might be shocking to you, but there is no 'free thinking' at all, but of course you have to think for yourself and see if this is true or not. That is not a contradiction unless you like playing with words. There are only thoughts and thoughts about thoughts. You are thinking all the time, night and day. In this way you have the illusion that there is a thinker, an identity that you call 'you'. But there is no centre, there are only thoughts. That's difficult to accept, but we are all puppets (of thought). What you don't know, you cannot recognize of give a name to it. Whatever it is. It is knowledge that is not your own. There is always this knowledge that is telling you that there is a woman and that over there it is grass and that it is green. You cannot look at something without this knowledge that is controlling you. Culture (the value system), religion, censorship, bias and selectivity are part of your thinking. This is what I want and this is what I don't want, but even these wants are not your own. |
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Post by heathen on Feb 19, 2016 23:17:35 GMT 1
You say, you can only recognize or name something if you have knowledge about it. Then say, 'This knowledge is not your own.'
Your own language betrays your argument.
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Post by heathen on Feb 19, 2016 23:20:52 GMT 1
"Freethinker" is a term dear to us, after both being banned from IFERS for being freethinkers. lit came up with it at Serendipitous, where we all went, after being banned by Eric Dubay about a year ago, towards late March / early April, in his first wave of bans. I think what @flatter is saying is that we are all the products of existing ideas, words and causes, and we are simply the product of the circumstances that produced us. I agree, but after a few seconds entertaining that thought, it drives me crazy, so I'd rather not think about it. Have you two seen "Being There" by the way? It is a move related to this subject. It ends with "...Life is just a state of mind". It might be shocking to you, but there is no 'free thinking' at all, but of course you have to think for yourself and see if this is true or not. That is not a contradiction unless you like playing with words. There are only thoughts and thoughts about thoughts. You are thinking all the time, night and day. In this way you have the illusion that there is a thinker, an identity that you call 'you'. But there is no centre, there are only thoughts. That's difficult to accept, but we are all puppets (of thought). What you don't know, you cannot recognize of give a name to it. Whatever it is. It is knowledge that is not your own. There is always this knowledge that is telling you that there is a woman and that over there it is grass and that it is green. You cannot look at something without this knowledge that is controlling you. Culture (the value system), religion, censorship, bias and selectivity are part of your thinking. This is what I want and this is what I don't want, but even these wants are not your own. It certainly appears you are playing with words. These words you are writing come from your thoughts. These thoughts you are expressing, by your own logic you're saying, are not your own. Unless you exempt yourself from all of this. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 23:22:17 GMT 1
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Post by heathen on Feb 19, 2016 23:24:06 GMT 1
Well, it doesn't mindfuck me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 23:33:18 GMT 1
You say, you can only recognize or name something if you have knowledge about it. Then say, 'This knowledge is not your own.' Your own language betrays your argument. I have knowledge about it, but it is not mine. I did not invent this knowledge myself. It is learned and from outside even when I combine several pieces of knowledge. |
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Post by heathen on Feb 19, 2016 23:34:47 GMT 1
You sound like Sam Harris. This sounds like determinism.
You state there is no you, while using language, which refers to yourself and others, and this identity having and also not having.
All of your language betrays your argument. This I/thou language is required in order to properly communicate your argument. Yet, in doing so, it tells us the I/though is a necessity and refers to reality, too enough of a degree, and so need it in order to thrive.
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Post by heathen on Feb 19, 2016 23:36:01 GMT 1
You say, you can only recognize or name something if you have knowledge about it. Then say, 'This knowledge is not your own.' Your own language betrays your argument. I have knowledge about it, but it is not mine. I did not invent this knowledge myself. It is learned and from outside even when I combine several pieces of knowledge. But there is no outside if there is no you. Your language tells me of an inner experience you are having. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 23:36:46 GMT 1
It might be shocking to you, but there is no 'free thinking' at all, but of course you have to think for yourself and see if this is true or not. That is not a contradiction unless you like playing with words. There are only thoughts and thoughts about thoughts. You are thinking all the time, night and day. In this way you have the illusion that there is a thinker, an identity that you call 'you'. But there is no centre, there are only thoughts. That's difficult to accept, but we are all puppets (of thought). What you don't know, you cannot recognize of give a name to it. Whatever it is. It is knowledge that is not your own. There is always this knowledge that is telling you that there is a woman and that over there it is grass and that it is green. You cannot look at something without this knowledge that is controlling you. Culture (the value system), religion, censorship, bias and selectivity are part of your thinking. This is what I want and this is what I don't want, but even these wants are not your own. It certainly appears you are playing with words. These words you are writing come from your thoughts. These thoughts you are expressing, by your own logic you're saying, are not your own. Unless you exempt yourself from all of this. All the words I use are not my own. I have no thought that I can call my own and they are not original. Also, your thoughts are not original and yours. I'm not playing with words. I have to use words, but I'm just pointing out what the situation is. You might not understand or not agree. That's fine with me. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 23:39:59 GMT 1
I have knowledge about it, but it is not mine. I did not invent this knowledge myself. It is learned and from outside even when I combine several pieces of knowledge. But there is no outside if there is no you. Your language tells me of an inner experience you are having. exactly, it is an illusion. This illusion separates you from the world around you, as you create a world of your own (with all your fantasies, illusions and beliefs). But it is an illusion, so the separation is an illusion, but a persistent one. |
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Post by heathen on Feb 19, 2016 23:42:44 GMT 1
You are simply stating it is an illusion. I am saying the I/thou experience is necessary, because it maps on to reality.
You can't live or, even go without, an I/thou experience. Yet, you call it an illusion.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 23:48:31 GMT 1
You sound like Sam Harris. This sounds like determinism. You state there is no you, while using language, which refers to yourself and others, and this identity having and also not having. All of your language betrays your argument. This I/thou language is required in order to properly communicate your argument. Yet, in doing so, it tells us the I/though is a necessity and refers to reality, too enough of a degree, and so need it in order to thrive. I don't know exactly what determinism is, but I doubt that it has anything to do with what I am saying. I am not saying anything, only that thought is not the instrument to understand the life energy. If you realize this, then you use thoughts only in order to live in this reality. Life becomes very simple. Thoughts create an illusionary identity, the 'you' as you know yourself. This 'you' is a product of the culture and the society. It is based on illusions and false images. What you really are, an unique expression of Life, you cannot know and will never know. It is outside the realm of thought. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 23:51:01 GMT 1
You are simply stating it is an illusion. I am saying the I/thou experience is necessary, because it maps on to reality. You can't live or, even go without, an I/thou experience. Yet, you call it an illusion. The 'I'/'you' doesn't exist. It's fantasy, an illusion based on false kowledge and false images. It is not necessary. Just the opposite, it makes life in this reality painful, full of misery and fear (separation from Life). |
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Post by heathen on Feb 19, 2016 23:59:16 GMT 1
I believe this world is of duality and opposites and the Logos balances all the opposites.
I am an identity but I made up of the whole at the same time.
Sorry, you are right, you are not speaking of determinism. Since I did not see you speaking metaphysically yet, it sounded like an atheist philosopher who says our mind and inner experience is an illusion.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 0:17:50 GMT 1
I believe this world is of duality and opposites and the Logos balances all the opposites. I am an identity but I made up of the whole at the same time. Sorry, you are right, you are not speaking of determinism. Since I did not see you speaking metaphysically yet, it sounded like an atheist philosopher who says our mind and inner experience is an illusion. Yes, thought can only operate in the field of time and in opposites (duality), this is good and that is bad, this is beautiful and that is ugly. I want to be happy (tomorrow) and therefore I am unhappy (less happy) now. It is fantasy, just made up. Thought is not the instrument to understand Life. So, there are only concepts, ideas and words like 'peace', 'love' and 'harmony' and 'balance'. Those words have no meaning at all. They are concepts. People have their 'own' fantasies. They create a world of their 'own'. Thought is only interested in keeping itself going. With all these illusions, concepts and methods and all kinds of desires (pleasure) it can do this, but it is destructive. The body (Life) is not interested in your happiness and pleasure. It is painful and that is what you (the world) ends up with. In the end it will be destroyed. Nothing will be lost, as Life has no beginning and no end. So, there is no god. No hierarchy. Everything is made of the same stuff, which is Life Energy. God is the ultimate pleasure (people want to have). To think that human beings are superior to other life forms and that the earth is created for the benefit of humans, is the cause of problems and destruction. Human beings are very good at exploiting and manipulation. It does not mean that there is evolution. Not at all. The earth is an artificial construction (made by thought and energy), but that doesn't mean that the engineers are gods. Not at all. Probably we played a role as well, as we have the same 'mind'. It really doesn't matter what and how this happened. We don't need to know this. It is not relevant for living in this reality sanely and intelligently. One thing is certain for me. Thought is the 'enemy'. See, the 'peace'/'harmony' is already there, in your body. Everything you do to get it will disturb what is already there. Just let the Life Energy express itself in you. You don't have to do a thing. Good luck! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 0:44:32 GMT 1
Thanks. I'll need it, in order to decipher your mysterious message. I bet you are a major in philosophy, you and heathen as well. Or maybe theology? Anyway, I hope you did not exhaust all your energies in this series of posts, and will still drop by from time to time. |
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Post by heathen on Feb 20, 2016 1:51:47 GMT 1
I believe this world is of duality and opposites and the Logos balances all the opposites. I am an identity but I made up of the whole at the same time. Sorry, you are right, you are not speaking of determinism. Since I did not see you speaking metaphysically yet, it sounded like an atheist philosopher who says our mind and inner experience is an illusion. Yes, thought can only operate in the field of time and in opposites (duality), this is good and that is bad, this is beautiful and that is ugly. I want to be happy (tomorrow) and therefore I am unhappy (less happy) now. It is fantasy, just made up. Thought is not the instrument to understand Life. So, there are only concepts, ideas and words like 'peace', 'love' and 'harmony' and 'balance'. Those words have no meaning at all. They are concepts. People have their 'own' fantasies. They create a world of their 'own'. Thought is only interested in keeping itself going. With all these illusions, concepts and methods and all kinds of desires (pleasure) it can do this, but it is destructive. The body (Life) is not interested in your happiness and pleasure. It is painful and that is what you (the world) ends up with. In the end it will be destroyed. Nothing will be lost, as Life has no beginning and no end. So, there is no god. No hierarchy. Everything is made of the same stuff, which is Life Energy. God is the ultimate pleasure (people want to have). To think that human beings are superior to other life forms and that the earth is created for the benefit of humans, is the cause of problems and destruction. Human beings are very good at exploiting and manipulation. It does not mean that there is evolution. Not at all. The earth is an artificial construction (made by thought and energy), but that doesn't mean that the engineers are gods. Not at all. Probably we played a role as well, as we have the same 'mind'. It really doesn't matter what and how this happened. We don't need to know this. It is not relevant for living in this reality sanely and intelligently. One thing is certain for me. Thought is the 'enemy'. See, the 'peace'/'harmony' is already there, in your body. Everything you do to get it will disturb what is already there. Just let the Life Energy express itself in you. You don't have to do a thing. Good luck! Thanks for the reply. I don't equate God with ultimate pleasure. This sounds like some form of gnosticism where the material is called thought. The material/thought is considered bad and the Pleroma is good. This is even more dualistic than what I am saying. I am saying all the dualities are encompessed by God and so are one. It is our judgements of good and bad to not see the Universe as Good. I believe God is the ground of all existence. God creates existence into Being. He is the ground of our being. This makes our inner experience real. I and Thou is also One and the Whole. The Logos creates the balance and harmony in nature. In this knowledge, we try to create harmony and balance of all the opposites in ourselves. |
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Post by heathen on Feb 20, 2016 2:03:31 GMT 1
The Logos creates the balance and harmony in nature. In this knowledge, we try to create harmony and balance of all the opposites in ourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 12:05:52 GMT 1
Thought is time. Thought is space. Thought is duality. Thought separates from Life.
Thought cannot understand and think of the possibility that something can happen outside the field of time.
Thought does not know what 'good' is.
The Life energy is 'non-duality'. As duality does not exist (it is fantasy), you cannot really talk of non-duality.
Thought caused all the problems and the misery and is not the instrument to solve the problems.
You are using thought to worship a power outside of you. You separate yourself from Life (illusionary).
Religion is the instrument of thought and can never help you to solve the problems. It is the creator of the problems.
Thought is the tree/instrument of knowledge of good and evil. This is duality. How can you use the same instrument to get rid of this tree/instrument?
No way.
You are on the wrong track/path.
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cal
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Post by cal on Feb 25, 2016 21:45:32 GMT 1
Greetings @flatter and welcome to the forum!
Sorry for arriving late to the party. I have some random "thoughts" to throw at the group.
I have always considered words as a prerequisite to thoughts and language. How can we communicate without words?
That seems to be one reason why the PTB want us less literate, and consequently our vocabularies are shrinking. Fewer words available and thus fewer thoughts result.
Also, my first reaction to non-thinking is the state of Nirvana, where nothing happens. Everything is total bliss. This doesn't seem like a state that I want.
Regarding communication have any of your heard of Julian Jaynes? I have yet to read his books, but I think his thesis is that man at only some point in time not that long ago acquired the thing that we call consciousness. Apparently prior to that we communicated directly with God. With words or without words--I do not know...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 22:06:55 GMT 1
Nice meeting you!
Nirvana doesn't exist. Eternal bliss does not exist. Thought induced energy can give you a good feeling for awhile, like drugs. That's it.
The thing is, communication is only necessary in order to live sanely and intelligently in this reality with some basic questions like 'at what platform does the train to Rome leave?'
No questions about 'Life' and 'How to live'. The answers are false and keep you full with illusions.
Only if you have no illusions, the energy is released, so you can live with all the senses and nervous system working completely active. Your life will be simple and 'normal'. There is no bliss. Life is constantly changing and expressing itself. That is the real action.
Maybe the self-conciousness is the thing we required (illusionary 'self'), but it is also possible that we are part of an experiment that went wrong or this reality has been made to seek pleasure and exploitation. I'm not sure what happened.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 22:24:54 GMT 1
Why are all the philosophers attracted to this forum? He is the fifth philosopher who joined: heathen, cal, dionysios and now @flatter. What is it about this forum that attracts the best people in this community? It must be the quiet and deserted environment, which enables people to talk. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 22:33:47 GMT 1
Why are all the philosophers attracted to this forum? He is the fifth philosopher who joined: heathen , cal , dionysios and now @flatter . What is it about this forum that attracts the best people in this community? It must be the quiet and deserted environment, which enables people to talk. I dont' know what I'm doing here, as I'm not a philosopher. I reject all religions and philosophies. Maybe, it's better not to be here and stop expressing myself, as I'm finished with the whole business. See how it goes. You created a nice forum though! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2016 7:01:26 GMT 1
Well, thank you very much.
Do as you feel, and do not write if you don't feel like writing. However, don't do like some other members, who, in order not to be addicted to a forum, delete their accounts.
On the other hand, I did it on other forums, so I will still understand if anyone does this, as other members have done here in the past.
If one day any of you will just leave and delete their accounts, do not assume that we will be upset and mad at you. In flat earth, this is normal. I saw it happen dozens of times.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2016 12:22:47 GMT 1
Are all your guests religious buffs?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2016 14:15:54 GMT 1
Theologians and philosophers are very close. Indeed they are all experts in both fields.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2016 14:21:57 GMT 1
Well said! They are very good at sharpening their thoughts, getting nowhere.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2016 14:44:19 GMT 1
You are twisting my words so that all the members of the forum will be insulted. I hate you! I hate you! I hate you! Just kidding.
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