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Post by dionysios on Oct 5, 2015 8:14:01 GMT 1
Beatnik icon I. Stone had written best book I knew on the Korean War until I came across 'This Monstrous War' by Wilfred Burchett which is a masterpiece. likely any non-fiction written by Wilfred Burchett is worthwhile. I had heard good things about British MP George Galloway in the past, but I personally had not read nor heard too much from him directly until I came across some of his non-conformist opinions about North Korea: m.youtube.com/watch?v=sYGQkVrIWHw |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 14:11:17 GMT 1
minute 0:51 "They do have a satellite circling the earth". So does this mean that they're part of the Illuminati and lying to us? Or do satellites exist? George Galloway Praises North Korea GallowayWatchAt any rate, I won't listen to anything this guy has to say, since he's not even a 911 truther. George Galloway Asked about 9/11 by Anthony J. Hall and Joshua Blakeney in Calgary (Part 2 of 2) Globalization1492 |
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Post by dionysios on Oct 6, 2015 5:18:44 GMT 1
I believe that airborne satellites exist. I also do not think this fact in any way contradicts the reality of the flat surface of the earth.
The distorted portrayal of these things by controlled sources of information, chiefly in America, is another story.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 6:18:23 GMT 1
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Post by dionysios on Oct 6, 2015 18:14:40 GMT 1
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Post by heathen on Oct 24, 2015 8:08:28 GMT 1
Not that I support the hipsters of VICE, but... North Korean Labor Camps - VICE NEWS - Part 1 of 7 VICEUploaded on Dec 19, 2011 Inside North Korea (Part 1/3 VICE Published on Dec 19, 2011 North Korea Documentary About a US Army soldier who defected to North Korea North Korea NewsPublished on Jul 31, 2015 (real name, Crossing the Line) 11:46 discusses order over chaos, Natural Law/Dharma is harmonious order. 12:46 All human societies, cultures, etc. have classes. (Unless one desires to live in loose affinity hunter gatherer bands, there will be ruling classes. And in those very small bands (smaller than tribes), there will be a hierarchy to streamline their methods of survival, fighting and hunting and missions.~ my additions). 14:51 For the last 200 years the idea has been growth through conflict between classes. The purpose of the conflict is for the result of chaos. From the result of chaos something better will come about. Which seems to be saying, order out of chaos. Nothing good will ever come about from chaos because the dharma or, natural law, is order over chaos, and is grounded in God. 15:25 the Dharmic idea of order or, natural law, is to, instead of taking the various classes and having them in conflict with each other, instead have them work harmoniously with one another. As nature does. 15:41 Why is it that we love nature? Why is it that we love going into nature? What is it that we find beautiful about nature itself? In a great forest you find great diversity. You find a variety of trees, plants, animals, insects. They are freely, as individuals, going about their own business in such a way, that as a result, of that harmony between all things in nature you see beauty. Nature is like a symphony. This is the idea of natural order in society. It is taking that natural diversity that is there, yes, even that inequality that is there. But harmonizing it in such a way that all beings, even all classes of beings, can thrive, can prosper, and can reach their own individual potential in such a manor that they themselves have prosperity as individuals, but also, that all of society benefits. All in society benefits and grows. I would choose this type of idea, talked quoted above by Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharya, over nonexistent abstract egalitarianism or the ruthless selfishness of fake individualism. |
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Post by dionysios on Oct 24, 2015 9:40:40 GMT 1
Marxist doctrine acknowledges that government is an instrument of rule by force of one class over others - the rule of the routinely exploited class of peasants and workers being a phase on the road to genuine communism.
In my opinion, if the society in North Korea is a better life for the people than their counterparts in capitalist states, then the social system of those capitalist states is inferior.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to say I follow the North Koreans unswervingly (I do rather tend to follow the Albanian leaders up to 1985), but I'd trust the North Korean state over and against the U.S. or its South Korean puppet every time.
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Post by heathen on Oct 24, 2015 14:44:02 GMT 1
 Where is this binary choice between the U.S. or North Korea? See, the problem for those who don't follow the lefty party line, is that it comes across as supporting whatever is anti the U.S. or the West (and also God, especially Christianity, especially if it is Western Christianity). I never said anything about a binary choice between North Korea or the U.S.
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Post by heathen on Oct 24, 2015 14:56:56 GMT 1
Marxist doctrine acknowledges that government is an instrument of rule by force of one class over others - the rule of the routinely exploited class of peasants and workers being a phase on the road to genuine communism. I know Marxist doctrine says that but somehow the good guys, the intellectual, the managerial class, will free the working class from that very instrument they used to oust the oppressors? And all based on a materialist ideology? That is what I quoted, Order out of Chaos. The idea is to create even more conflict within its own society and then create order out of that chaos. Most people don't easily buy into the belief that that scenario would really ever happen. It creates a class system all over again. But classes are inevitable. |
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Post by dionysios on Oct 24, 2015 17:15:19 GMT 1
I'm not very knowledgeable about Marxism and don't want to knock it about something for which it actually has a legitimate explanation of which I am unaware, but I rather agree with the above analysis.
It's worth stating that Marx is an explicator of communism, and Marxism and communism are not identical. In my opinion, he had a couple of errors such as his belief in Darwinism which however do not alter the value of his analysis of exploitation and his writings generally.
On a different subject, I'd like to say concerning the earlier reference to the "illuminati" that its use in my opinion is that of a straw man which diverts energy and thought into a waste basket. The actual organization which existed back in the late 1700's and early 1800's was a leftist outfit. While it had what are in my opinion it's errors such as promoting abortion and a few other side issues, its opponents were colonialists who opposed movements of the lower classes such as the French Revolution which the Illuminati supported which was a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
Thus, talk about an illuminati conspiracy is typically from a right wing perspective. It's a dead giveaway. In that sense, the phenomenon of illuminati conspiracy belongs in the same category as most communist and Jewish conspiracy as straw men that divert our attention into a hole in the ground and away from worthwhile speakers such as George Galloway's comments about North Korea, for example.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 17:23:54 GMT 1
Well, up to a point though, because when we believe (I do, and so does John Todd, whom I trust on this subject) that the Illuminati are a satanic sect that, across the centuries, has worshiped Lucifer, and has been performing human sacrifices, it won't matter to me how much they did in favor of the poor, or social justice.
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Post by dionysios on Oct 25, 2015 0:28:43 GMT 1
I never said anything about a binary choice between North Korea or the U.S. Neither did I. The main thing I got out of George Galloway is an indictment of American and pervasive western attitude towards North Korea - not a vindication of North Korea itself. I'd like to know more about North Korea, but I frankly didn't find the VICE videos useful or free from typical capitalist society prejudices. The video with the guy on the airplane is not thinking outside the box, but rather slavish demonization of North Korea along the lines of the kind of propaganda it's enemies would like - propaganda for proper geese. It's also lacking in information both pro or con which brings to my mind Solomon's proverb: "Depart from the presence of a fool when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge." From what I saw, VICE doesn't qualify for consideration. George Galloway has obviously studied the subject a bit and merits my ear. I am open to criticism of North Korea that's informative and not obviously parroting the U.S. state department while insulting my intelligence by trying to portray itself as objective independent media like that guy from VICE. However, I hear loud and clear the view that criticism of US policy against North Korea would do well to not automatically and uncritically praise North Korea. Such a maverick criticism of North Korea was that of Enver Hoxha by whom I remember reading some brief critical words about the North Korean leadership in his book on the Khruhschevites. Based on that, if I myself were to look for a more thorough critique of North Korea's history, then a Hoxhaist source would be among the first places I would seek after such a balanced perspective. |
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Post by dionysios on Oct 25, 2015 0:43:28 GMT 1
I watched Vice's video on North Korean labor camps in Russia. A group of guys goes to Russia to work with their government's support, and these idiots try to portray it as a concentration camp. Petty fascist vomit. It's routine American crude anti-communist propaganda like McCarthy or Solzhenitsyn trying to portray itself otherwise.
What I learned from the video is to be suspicious about Vice News. Where did they get the money for these trips? I wouldn't be surprised if it was funded by the military or indirectly through a CIA front organization. Fascists need to portray themselves as hipsters to have any kind of audience (which is why the U.S. military is one of Hollywood's main sponsors). My main focus is what they're saying which is the same kind of fabrications and distortions that Hitler and Solzhenitsyn spouted.
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Post by heathen on Oct 25, 2015 2:02:39 GMT 1
I never said anything about a binary choice between North Korea or the U.S. The main thing I got out of George Galloway is an indictment of American and pervasive western attitude towards North Korea - not a vindication of North Korea itself. I'd like to know more about North Korea, but I frankly didn't find the VICE videos useful or free from typical capitalist society prejudices. The video with the guy on the airplane is not thinking outside the box, but rather slavish demonization of North Korea along the lines of the kind of propaganda it's enemies would like - propaganda for proper geese. It's also lacking in information both pro or con which brings to my mind Solomon's proverb: "Depart from the presence of a fool when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge." From what I saw, VICE doesn't qualify for consideration. George Galloway has obviously studied the subject a bit and merits my ear. I am open to criticism of North Korea that's informative and not obviously parroting the U.S. state department while insulting my intelligence by trying to portray itself as objective independent media like that guy from VICE. However, I hear loud and clear the view that criticism of US policy against North Korea would do well to not automatically and uncritically praise North Korea. Such a maverick criticism of North Korea was that of Enver Hoxha by whom I remember reading some brief critical words about the North Korean leadership in his book on the Khruhschevites. Based on that, if I myself were to look for a more thorough critique of North Korea's history, then a Hoxhaist source would be among the first places I would seek after such a balanced perspective. dionysios said~ Either or, either or. I never said either US. or N. Korea. But I did provide you with the left liberal VICE and another documentary about an American defector to N. Korea, to see what your reaction might lead to. And I provided another option to show specifically it doesn't have to be a choice between the U.S. or N. Korea, that there are other ways of looking at things. And I spent time paraphrasing from the video because I didn't think it'd be watched if I just pointed at time stamps. As well as this, I explicitly state I would rather have something along the lines of what I quoted rather than non-existent egalitarianism or ruthless selfish fake individualism. Marxist or communist class conflict, among its many other conflicts it agitates, will not bring about order nor is it so great for the working classes. The agitated conflicts create even more disorder/chaos and the Materialist Marxist creates one big corporate capitalist state with its own ruling class. That was my whole point of my post.dionysios said, Haha, you throw around fascist so much it's funny. It is easy to accuse others of fascism in the West, especially the U.S., because culturally/socially it means, bad person. It is culturally sanctioned to be against, and talk against such things, and to accuse one's enemy of being one. The problem isn't that if it is or if it isn't a concentration camp, it is a labor camp which some people find repulsive. It is funny to me that VICE is petty fascist vomit.....but labor camps aren't really concentration camps (etc etc)? |
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Post by dionysios on Oct 25, 2015 21:07:58 GMT 1
Although I disagree with what he said, I appreciate heathen for succinctly getting to his underlying point. I will briefly mention three points.
I disagree that Marxism leads to capitalism. The history of the USSR during the Lenin and Stalin era demonstrates this.
From what I saw, Vice News is not leftist whatsoever. It is simply right wing fascist propaganda. That's the only impression it made upon me.
Finally, the view that the term "fascist" is bandied about too loosely is an attempt by fascists themselves to not be identified for what they are and to protect things that would not withstand the scrutiny. I'm not surrendering my freedom of speech for the sake of things I honestly believe are evil.
That said, I'm interested in convening with like minded folks which as far as political conversations in the western world likely means the Stalin Society (of London) and in the US the League of Revolutionaries which are the remnant of the Communist Labor Party - the largest, most active and minority (predominantly non-white) led american pro-Stalinist communist organization of the Cold War.
I have no interest in pursuing arguments with people of different beliefs which is in my opinion a waste of time for both.
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Post by heathen on Oct 25, 2015 21:37:09 GMT 1
dionysis said,
I didn't say it leads to capitalism, I said that what is the socialist/marxist state is a capitalist state. The means of production is owned and controlled by the state. Those in control of the state are in control of the means of production, not the working class. The means of production are centralized into the state after wrestled from the capitalists. The ruling class controls the means of production. The ruling class are essentially the capitalist class of one single corporation.
dionsyios said~
Interesting. Beyond me finding it interesting, you should also be aware that I said it was easy to accuse others of being fascists because it is socially sanctioned to be against fascists, and it is common to call political enemies fascists. And then you go on about defending your freedom of speech....
dionsyios said
Even more interesting. As well as this, your beliefs are in regards to the societies we all live in, so you will always have other people saying their differing views, when you talk about them to the unbelievers.
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Post by dionysios on Oct 26, 2015 0:34:09 GMT 1
I said that what is the socialist/marxist state is a capitalist state. The means of production is owned and controlled by the state. Those in control of the state are in control of the means of production, not the working class. The means of production are centralized into the state after wrestled from the capitalists. The ruling class controls the means of production. The ruling class are essentially the capitalist class of one single corporation. Again, this analysis does not describe the reality of the USSR during the Lenin and Stalin era. That analysis accurately describes the USSR only after the economic changes of the early 1960's which abandoned Marxism. |
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Post by heathen on Oct 26, 2015 1:01:24 GMT 1
I said that what is the socialist/marxist state is a capitalist state. The means of production is owned and controlled by the state. Those in control of the state are in control of the means of production, not the working class. The means of production are centralized into the state after wrestled from the capitalists. The ruling class controls the means of production. The ruling class are essentially the capitalist class of one single corporation. Again, this analysis does not describe the reality of the USSR during the Lenin and Stalin era. That analysis accurately describes the USSR only after the economic changes of the early 1960's which abandoned Marxism. Marxists say to working class people that capitalists own the means of production. They tell working class people the Marxists/socialists/communists are trying to liberate the working classes from capitalist oppression. Capitalists, the working class are told, own the means of production. So, they tell the working class, their political movement will take the means of production and give it to the working class who then will become liberated. Yet, the means of production are then put into the Party's hands, via the state, and that ruling class now has all of the means of production centralized into the state. Thereby, essentially making the ruling class the capitalist class in that they are in control of the means of production. The working class is still the lower class, while the ruling class owns the whole country through the state, after centralizing all the wealth/property. |
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Where is this binary choice between the U.S. or North Korea?